Vinny Golia and the Large Ensemble, pfMENTUM, January 2000

By Jeff Kaiser

We were just talking about all of the different ensembles you've played with over the years. They are portable, easier to schedule rehearsals for, easier to write for, so then, why would you want to take on a Large Ensemble? You are writing music for thirty players, trying to get them to rehearsals, to gigs...why would you want to do that?

It wasn't that big when it started; it was fourteen when it started, which is actually kind of manageable to a certain extent. As the music grew, then you had to add personnel. So it just went in that direction. No one is really breaking their back to give me a chance to do something with a chamber orchestra, so I'm following the way I've usually, kind of always, done things and just doing it myself. So I've added players. All the people are handpicked musicians, amazingly committed to doing this work. The more I keep getting the external feedback to do it, the more I know I am not totally insane. Email has certainly made it better...no more hand written cards to everybody. Email is a fantastic means of communication.

Is the name Large Ensemble basically another name for big band?

It is not a big band because it does not play big band music; it plays chamber music. I wanted to make a distinction even in the beginning that it was going to be a larger group that still functions like my smaller groups, but it was going to be a group with a larger personnel. And so Large Ensemble was synonymous with a chamber orchestra, but when it was first started I couldn't call it a chamber orchestra, because I didn't have strings. I had two basses, but I didn't have violins, cellos, violas. As it transformed itself, by slowly adding strings (cellos came first), bassoons, double reeds and stuff like that it then actually became a chamber orchestra, but by that time the identity of the Large Ensemble was already ensconced, so I kept the name. I'm not like Sun Ra, where, whenever he had a new concept, he changed the name of his group. I just keep it at Large Ensemble knowing that people who are familiar with me know it is not going to be like big band music; it is going to be like a cross between the jazz tradition and the contemporary classical tradition, and if we want to add other stuff into the melange you get that as well...

This is a little side question that a couple of people asked me: Why no french horns? The entire standard orchestra is represented except french horns...

I use the trombones as french horns. I find them to be a little more versatile. And I also have the best trombone section in the world with Phil Teele, Bruce Fowler, Mike Vlatkovich, George McMullen and Scott Ray. Other people can say whatever they want to say, but basically, I have the best trombone section in the world. And even guys who replace them, guys like Robbie Hioki, Danny Hemwall on the bass trombone, and Alan Ferber are all really versatile. Plus the trombone as an instrument has the flexibility, and the use of mutes, to go into the french horn range and do all those things.

Well, french horn players tend to be very neurotic anyway...

I wouldn't know about that...but the other thing is: finding french horn players that really improvise is a little harder than finding a trombone player that does. There are a number of them out there...but there is not a huge list of french horn players who can really improvise. But again, my trombones play classical, are used to open improvising, used to digging in. So I feel like I actually have them [the french horns].

You mentioned the great trombone section. They are phenomenal. Your band members are known for playing with a variety of other players. I know, for instance, that Bruce Fowler has played with both Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart. Who else have the members of your band played with?

Toshiko Akiyoshi, Anthony Braxton, Brian Setzer, Patti Smith, Rova Saxophone Quartet, Doc Severinsen, Don Ellis...I mean there probably is not a group of any renown that somebody in this band has not been a member of...John Fumo has played with Neil Young and John Tesh...so it is quite amazing.

I saw the Large Ensemble at Hop Singh's with Tim Berne, was it '85 or '86?

'84. He was in the band originally in 1982 when the band got started. March 14.

One of the things that impresses me is that many players in the original Large Ensemble are still in it.

There are 5 of the original 14: Me, Alex Cline, Fumo, Vlatkovich, and Wayne Peet. Unfortunately two of the original players passed away. One piece of the set we will be doing in Ventura and L.A. is a tribute to Eric Von Essen, who passed away. And John Carter passed away. Berne, John Rapson, Rickey Kelly moved away. Most of the people didn't stop playing with the band; they either passed on or moved to a different location.

There is a great loyalty, I sense, among your membership towards you and you to your members. I mean, you do bring in people from all over the country.

Yeah, they were in the band originally, and they still want to play in the band, so I give them the first shot. If they can do it, and if we can work out some kind of arrangement for travel, I feel like they should be given the first shot. People have remained really loyal...and doing these ridiculous tours and jumps and things like that. I mean it's just been quite remarkable. I am very fortunate, in that sense, very fortunate, and kind of blessed. I get overtly sappy about it. I feel that the musicians are some of the best musicians, and the fact that they really like to do this music is a great honor for me...and they don't always want to do it [laughs], and there is a lot of complaining about the charts. But it is fun, but at the same time, I believe the music challenges the players to come up with playing in such a way that it uses what they do, but at the same time it also hopefully expands on their wants and needs. I mean, everybody is a fine improviser, so now it is a question of changing the settings to see what they can do and to see how far you can push the envelope. Right now, as a group, things that were hard for us are now second nature, and now we are branching out into this other music which is a little more difficult.

One critic described the music as "Mingus meets Stravinsky." It is always difficult to describe music, but what can the audience expect?

You know, we play a lot of odd time vampish kind of things; we have an ethereal side to the band. In one of these all-music guides, it is described as a "leviathan" that slowly surfaces and rolls. I mean, there are certain sections that really drive-these are the more jazz tradition sections-and certain areas in the contemporary classical tradition. I would not be remiss if I said in certain areas it gets Varese-like and in other areas Messiaen-like without copying, and there certainly might be elements of Stravinsky. I love Mingus' music. In terms of a jazz player, he is it for me. I was fortunate enough to meet him and know him just on the periphery and talk with him once in awhile. So I have a great deal of love and respect for him and his music. I mean, I thought that was what real jazz was...

Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting is one of the all-time great jazz pieces...

Oh man, you know they use that in a car ad now. [Sings bass line.] At one point they must need some extra measures, because they add somebody else's bass at the end, and that guy plays something Mingus would never play...oh man...

Some of your pieces definitely pick up that drive, vamp, groove thing...

Well you know, you got Ken Filiano and Alex Cline, you want propulsion, it is there.You know that gig we did at Yoshi's, the other bassist couldn't come and Ken just pulled the whole band the whole night, he and Alex. And Wayne's comping the whole evening was quite spectacular. Some people don't like the use of synthesizer in the band, but I particularly like that direction. When I originally envisioned the Large Ensemble, I wanted it to do all of these things: contemporary classical, jazz, electronics, world music aspects with hand drums. And now it is getting to where I saw it. But it's taken 17 years, by the time the new disc comes out; 18 years it has been together, and it is just starting to get to where I wanted it to be.

The Yoshi's gig was recorded and will be released on CD soon?

My guess is that the discs will be here first part of January. It is a double CD.

That gig was a blast. I had a wonderful time. I was ready musically for that gig, but not physically! I am working out now to get in shape for the upcoming concerts. I mean, the first set at Yoshi's was 90 minutes, the second over 2 hours...lengthwise it was like The Grateful Dead meets Sun Ra...

Well, we do have a reputation for playing a lot. What actually happens is, our concentration improves the more we play together. So when you are playing these long sets, the road maps are so convoluted, the notes are so extreme, so you have to constantly keep this relationship to your instrument and you constantly have to stay in the music. Because even in the parts where you are improvising, I am cueing in backs [musical sections done simultaneously with soloists] behind the soloists. So everyone has to be in the music. I mean, you are watching two conductors, your music, your section, mute changes, instrument changes. You are constantly being pushed into the music. Also, I write specifically for those people in the band, as opposed to other people who would just come in. It makes it hard when an individual is not going to be there, as I have to change what compositions we will actually play.

Glenn Gould had one of my favorite dictums, appropriately called Gould's Dictum. Something like, "All great piano music must be contrapuntal." I feel the same about orchestral music, that the music should rely on the relationships of line-against-line, and less on the vertical, harmonic relationships. I get that with your music. I may practice a line at home with no problem. But when I get to rehearsal and try playing it in context of the counterpoint, well, that's a different story...

Dave Johnson said that as well. He said, like, "This music is not about the parts, anyone can play the parts, but once you are in there, playing your part, playing with the other people, somebody is soloing over the top of it, and you're trying to follow the conductor, and you are cueing backs. Then it becomes almost impossible to keep your concentration." See, that's where you are functioning at the top of your game, using all your senses and all your faculties just to stay on board.

Sort of Darwin-meets-the-orchestra, a musical survival instinct kicks in...

It doesn't always work, but you learn to rely on your musical skill and the skill of the others in the group.

One last question: What would you like to say to the audience before they come to the concert?

I think it is best to come to the music and kind of be open about what it is that you are going to hear. There are no preconceptions in that sense. To me, what makes a good composition, improvisation, or portrait or picture or whatever, is the use of rhythm, shape, form and color. Those are the tenets for me of what musical experience should be, so I am trying to fulfill all these tenets, and then take the listener on an excursion with the band as the boat through these different areas, and it may open up certain areas that you may want to deal with, and you may not want to deal with, but you follow this kind of flow with the band. Just kind of go with us. I think that is the easiest way to really understand, not understand-that's the wrong word, try to experience the music. So it's not like, "what are you trying to say, trying to do? What is this, what is that?" I don't really deal with those things. I do deal with the aspects of trying to use our three centers: the spiritual center, the emotional center, and the technical center, and trying to make the music from the centers of the musicians. And using rhythm, shape, form and color I try to come up with whatever it is we need to take you someplace else. So that's how I'm looking at it, and I'm trying to foresee all the possibilities of where the improvs will go. Basically, it's the audience's ride and we're the E-ticket.